Motivational issues
i want to share with you all a conversation with a japanese friend (XX in the extract) relating to motivation (i think anyway).
[/XX says:
you are English. to speak english is easy for you
XX says:
for me japanese is easy
Yorkii says:
yes
Yorkii says:
we have to accept our limitations
Yorkii says:
but it is hard to
Yorkii says:
especially when i live/work/speak/see/ japanese people
XX says:
probably
Yorkii says:
and it is so easy for them... my brain goes... "Why is it so easy for them? Why can't I do it"?
Yorkii says:
i guess its like looking at someone playing the violin really well and going... "Why cant i do that".
Yorkii says:
i think its the same, but speaking comes so easy, we take it for granted, so i expect to be able to do it in another language too...
my point is that we do take speaking for granted and so (I at least) expected it to come as naturally in a second language. we really do have to look at it like learning to playthe piano or whatever, it is a real task that will require hundreds of manhours, not just - read a few books, go to a few classes "It will soak in eventually" type attitudes.
i think anyway..
yorkii
I had actually heard from a Japanese woman that 訊く is rarely used. I usually see 聞く for that meaning. Maybe you're just way more erudite than the average Japanese. :-):cool:
http://www.kanken.or.jp/henkan/happyou_11.html
Is this the link you're thinking about, Glenn?
There was a documentary film (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0334405/) called "Spellbound" about spelling bees in America (it seems to be an American phenomenon). I found a link at Amazon Japan for the DVD:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000WN13Q/qid=1140478667/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl15/503-0094363-2661563
Spelling contests weren't a big thing where I went to school, so I can't really comment.
And let me be the first to welcome you to the Mikawa region!
I hope only the best for you and yours!
もしかして日本の方ですか？
Wow, I hope someday to have people mistake me for a native speaker. He's actually originally from Wisconsin, USA.
i think anyway..
yorkiiWow... hah hah that read me like a book, Im reading my Japanese for Dummies book, listening to audio cds, and chillin with some easy language games. I however am making preporations for more hardcore learning, its just taking me a while to get all the materials I need for study.
It depends on your goals. If you're insane like me and learning Japanese is your life goal, then the process is practically self-sustaining. If you're learning because you have to, there's less joy inherent in the process, I suppose.
寿司屋に行かなかった / 寿司屋に烏賊無かった (烏賊 = いか ＝cuttlefish or squid)
And:
ウチの先生、小山田っていうの / ウチの先生、女形だっていうの
is pretty funny (女形 = おやま＝male actor playing a woman)
I seem to remember a program on TV in Japan devoted to these.
But now anyone with a computer can happily type in some hiragana and boom - it gives you a list of possible kanji with 変換ミス being the only mistake you can make. I liked that example you gave, nihon no daigakusei - where can I see more? Do Japanese (日本語の） courses nowadays allow computer-written essays, or do they make you write them out by hand? Do you think computers have produced a generation of Japanese (日本語の） students who don't understand stroke-order and have no idea how to write nice characters?
On a related note - I think that one of the biggest short-comings of the 日本語能力試験 is that it is all multi-choice - you don't have to write a single kanji.
日本の大学生さん、専攻はなんですか？もしかして英文 学科ですか？
Ｇｌｅｎｎさんが私の個人情報を漏らしてしまったから （笑）ここでその「仇」を討ちます。彼は今年の夏ぐら いに京都の大学に来るそうです。近いから日本の大学生 さんとＧｌｅｎｎさんとが、いい友達になれるかもしれ ません。:cool:
>>Glennさん I didn't imagin that you told me 訊く is hradly used . I think we normally use 訊く when we want to say a word of きく which means ask. In this situation, we only have two options 訊くand きく（ひらがな）。
There are many kinds of きくsuch as 聴く、聞く、利く、効く. We also sometimes find it difficult to choose which to use.
By the way, it is difficult for a japanese to use {watch, look, see} properly because we have no vocabulary to translate these English words into Japanese except 見る.
especially when i live/work/speak/see/ japanese people
Forgive my impertinence, but how can a fellow in Leeds be that immersed in a Japanese environment?
whops, looks like i forgot to change my location. i do apologise mike, i moved to japan in August of last year,
my bad :bluush:
Hahaha, I'm sure you know more kanji and more about kanji than I do. I've made some pretty horrific 変換ミス in my time.
There's the 日本語迫ﾍ試験 that's held every year at least once (maybe as many as four times) in various locations throughout the country, but I've never taken it. I declined the opportunity to take 二級 last year because I didn't want to spend the $50, and I figured it isn't that much further to 一級, plus I don't need certification for anything just yet. Of course, having said that, something will come up that I'll need certification for and I won't be able to do anything about it.
Generally, Our skills of kanji is decling because of "conversion" equiped with a computer, cellphone. It is really convenient for us when we have to write a long composition. Some boys/ girls are cheating at kanji quiz in school in Japan. Also in my high school days,when we take a English vocabularly quiz, we are supposed to turn off the celluer phone in case our cheating, but there were some challengers and some were arrested by teachers like MeAndroo's friend（笑）.
But, please don't see all the Japanese students as a cunning ones. We have 漢字検定 and some students are working hard on kanji. In fact, high level kanji or difficult kanji skills are not required today also because of a conversion. 一級 is unbelievable. It requires us so complicated and rarely used kanji that I think there is no need to know. But, I think if the Japanese who has commonsense take 漢字検定, they can get 準二級（pre-２kyuu）or 二級 without studying for it.
By the way, I've heard of Spelling Bee, but I don't know well about it. Have you ever taken it? and, does type writing influence your English spelling ?
そうです。一年間留学します。どのキャンパスかは分か らないんですけど。そんなことについて調べなければな りませんね。
This is wonderful. Glenn is going to have a ready-made drinking buddy as soon as he arrives.
Haha. Actually I already have a drinking buddy in the area. But hey, the more the merrier, right?
A friend of mine is a schoolteacher in Japan and she repeatedly catches students using their cell phones for kanji DURING TESTS. I'd say since it's so easy to look it up, people don't feel the need to really remember them as much as they had before technology advanced to where it is today. I used to use my cell phone when doing Japanese homework before I figured out I wasn't remembering certain small strokes on kanji.
The Japanese courses I took often asked for both handwritten and typed essays. The handwritten copy would be turned in as a draft, corrected, then the student would retype it for the next day.
ところで、日本の大学生さんはどの大学に通っているの ですか。私が通うのは同志社大学なんです。
The ideal balance for me personally and I think a lot of people is the realistic love for an individual, the people and culture combined with an inherent interest in mastering another language. The emotional and intellectual sides of it being somehow out of alighnment can eventually very seriously ruin your entire life, especially getting involved with people as a bridge to learning the language or outgrowing that childhood love for anime and manga. The only solution at that point, when everything else is falling apart around you, is to keep going with the language, it will all come together eventually after all, or decide that the life there is worthwhile enough even without it.
皆さんはずっとまじめにがんばっているので感心します 。:cheer: これからもがんばりましょうね。
Hahahaha :D:D:D
I like that one!
By the way, there is a site that has a bunch of them that I think won a contest. I'll have to see if I can find it: I followed a link to get there. I remember that on the top of the page it said 変漢ミス, with the 漢 written larger, in red and oriented crookedly. Anyway, there were some really good ones there.
About the computer issue: I try to write kanji by hand as much as possible to help myself remember them, and because it's fun. :-)
I have problems with spelling lately too, though, and I'm not quite sure why. I used to have no problems. If I had to guess it would have something to do with the spellcheck on word processors that underlines words that are misspelled (or just not English). It seems I've become too reliant on auto-check. I've started to lose confidence in my spelling, even, and that was something I never really had a problem with.
こちらこそ、どうも〜。いや、実は利休の歌が書かれて いたので、日本人かと思っただけなんですが（笑）。利 休はもちろん有名ですが、歌の内容までとなると日本人 でも教養のある人でないとなかなか知らないですよ。む しろ日本に興味のある外国人のほうが知っている事が多 かな(笑）。でも本当に日本語お上手ですよ。
僕は京都の大学の一回生で英文学科に所属しています。 Glennさんとはいつか京都のどこかで 会うかもしれないですね〜。 もし会っても分からないですけど（笑）。お二人とも大 学で日本文学を専攻されているのですか？
I agree with Elizabeth that it's a balance of different things that make the motivation for me.
There's what you might call the initial motivation, that kicked it off - y'know, the thing that originally made you decide to learn Japanese. In my case, it went something like this:
-- Interested to understand song lyrics.
-- Began to find myself 'learning' inadvertently, in the same way as I started learning English as a child - my brain started by itself to figure out sound meanings, grammer and parts of sentences.
-- Decided to formalise that by getting a book and starting classes.
-- Still going!!! ^^
The motivations that keep me going are:
-- Interest in the 'intellectual' side of learning a language - the 'brain exercise' if you like. Languages - including my native language - have always fascinated me.
-- Being able to see progress.
-- Being able to communicate with someone (I'm actually thinking of a specific person here) in their own language. It makes better social skills, and communication would of course be the main motivator for someone actually living in Japan!
But I think the main motivator for anyone learning, for whatever reason, is being able to see and benefit from your own progress - whether that's being able to hold a more advanced conversation (with your fellow students, tutor, friends or work colleagues), read more kanji, understand a more advanced piece of writing, pick out some words in your favourite manga, recognise a sentence in a song... whatever. If you feel like you're not getting anywhere, it seems like 'what's the point in trying?'
In my case, although I can't read any kanji yet, I get ridiculously childishly pleased when I can understand some katakana words on the back of an eyeshadow pack or on a poster, and when I can understand a word or whole sentence in a song or an interview! :blush:
But although my level is low, there's also the hope of things to come that is a big motivator for me - for example, I'm looking forward to learning kanji even though I don't know when I will begin this. To feel there is a lot to learn in the future makes a spur to me, rather than a discouragement. But maybe not everybody's mind works like that................?
Mr.J44xm, nice to meet you here. You are going to come to Japan in April as you mentioned above. I think visiting Japan will improve your japanese and motivate you to study it much harder than now. By the way, what part of Japan are you going to visit? I live in Kobe.
In fact, I made a mistake. I converted みるinto kanji unconsciously. I shoud have rwitten みる in hirahgana. It is a bad habitant for the Japanese who often use a computer.
We can change hiragana into kanji with the converting system(変換システム How do you say?） so easily, in spite of knowledge of the meaning of kanji, that many Japanese, including me, has less kanji vocabulary than ever before. When it comes to handwriting, we someｔimes can't rememer kanji we intend to write. So, I may use きく instead of 訊く when I am not using a computer. If I can't find a proper kanji, can I ask you which kanji I should write?（笑）
By the way, there is a test of Japanese in America, isn't it? Do you utilize it to increse your motivation for studing Japanese? I used to take an English test for it when I was in high school.
You are going to Okazaki,Aichi prefecture. I've nver been to Okazaki so I cannot give you enough advice about staying in Okazaki, but I think you'll find the funny dialect there.
I'm happy to hear you like to study Japanese as a Japanese.
The reason why I study English↓
We are taught English in junior high school and high school in Japan. I had got a better grade for English compared with the other subjects. So, I've come to think I want to improve my English skill more.
When I went to Australia three years ago, which was the first vist for me to a foreign country, I was moved by its beautiful nature and different culture. Then, I thoght there are a lot of things I'll never know in the world unless I visit to see. So, I felt the necessity of English because it is almost common language in the world.
Can I ask you back the reason why you are interested in Japanese?
>>Mikawa Ossan
もしかして日本の方ですか？
In the near future, I also will be required the certifications such as TOEIC, TOEFL and 英語検定 when I apply for a company. I hope I can make a high score by the time of an employment exam.
Your Japanese is good. I'm a Japnese uiversity student and studying English. I was impressed how hard you learn Japanese and that encouraged me to study English. If you have a question about Japanese language, ask me and I will answer it as far as I can, but with my poor English.
As per your question of typing influencing spelling:
I have problems with spelling lately too, though, and I'm not quite sure why. I used to have no problems. If I had to guess it would have something to do with the spellcheck on word processors that underlines words that are misspelled (or just not English). It seems I've become too reliant on auto-check. I've started to lose confidence in my spelling, even, and that was something I never really had a problem with.
http://www.kanken.or.jp/henkan/happyou_11.html
Is this the link you're thinking about, Glenn?
Yup, that's the one. Thanks for putting the link up. I had forgotten about it. :blush:
面白い、「訊」という漢字を使ったとはね。あまり使われない漢字ですからね。事情によって最も 適当なのに。
では、これからもよろしくお願いします！
>>Glennさん 日本について何か分からない事があれば、何でも訊いてください。あまり大したことはできな いかもしれませんが、少しでも力になれたらと思っています。
Can I ask you back the reason why you are interested in Japanese?
Certainly. In short, I recently went through a difficult time in which I realized that I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. It was very unpleasant. During this time, I realized that the only thing that interested me at all was studying Japanese. Thus, I've decided to dedicate my life (for now, at least) to learning to speak Japanese as well as I can. For the first time, I feel passionate about something, and that's invigorating to me. I still have to figure out exactly what I'm doing to do for a career--translating appeals to me--but for now, this is my number-one goal.
Sometimes, the convenient things spoil us, but we can't do without them today. でも、英語学習者として、英単語のスペルしっかり頑張 りたいと思います〜間違えまくりなんで。。。
The Japanese courses I took often asked for both handwritten and typed essays. The handwritten copy would be turned in as a draft, corrected, then the student would retype it for the next day.
I havne't written anything longer than 5 sentences on a piece of paper for the past 2 years. I say I can only write about 30% of the kanji off the top of my head. The rest 70% I have to check with dictionary first. The scary thing is that the same thing is happening to my English. I forgot how to spell certain words since word processor usually corrects minor spelling mistakes before I even noticed I made a mistake.
When learning any language, the most important thing is to ask yourself why are you learning the language. It could be your love for the culture, people, anime, or even girl. Now, look at Japanese language as a tool to help you achieve your interests and goals. If your desire is strong enough, you should have no problem finding the motivation to learn Japanese. Overall, ask yourself is learning Japanese in accord with your core values of life. This type of motivation comes from within yourself and can prove to be extremely effective.
Of course there are other type of motivation. It could just be that you are living in Japan and have no choice but have to learn Japanese. Also, you might need to learn Japanese because of your job. These motivation comes from the outside and could be effective at times. However, learner might not have the same satisfying feeling as having motivation from the inside.
Sometimes I find myself losing interest in learning Japanese but when I recall the process of me learning English, I feel more motivated because I realized mastering Japanese is a long process. A process that is not measured in terms of days or months, but in years or even decades.
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